Kerry-Bush 2: Savage in St Louis
OK, let's see how this liveblogging lark goes - I think the last time I tried this was for the local elections in May 2003.
Before we start, make sure you're aware of the debate rules.
Something to watch as the night goes on if you want to follow the money and see who's won - Betfair's prices are currently 1.71 on Bush and 2.38 on Kerry (that's about 7/10 and 7/5 in standard odds). Interestingly, Betfair have just opened markets on various swing states, but there's still very little money in them, but it'll be interesting to see how prices go in them as they establish.
The cameras just showed Bush momentarily from the back - I'm sure someone's looking for a bulge there.
First question to Kerry - are you wishy-washy? He responds by saying the Bush campaign is a 'weapon of mass deception'. Interesting answer - pointing out that he's supported Bush on issues and that Bush has changed his mind to not do what he says. Bush response is a bit of a yah-boo, but not bad, though 'pressure' could be this week's 'hard work'.
Next question is on weapons of mass destruction and the ISG report. Bush: 9/11 changed everything, Saddam was a 'unique threat' even if he didn't possess WMDs. Kerry - the world is more dangerous because the President made the wrong judgements. Kerry stepping right up to the Bush attacks - I believe Saddam was a threat, and I wanted him removed from power, but I would have used power wisely. Bush took his eye off the ball.
Rebuttal: Bush brings up the 'global test', sanctions and the UN weren't working. Kerry - ISG report shows sanctions worked to removed WMDs, and US should have used 'smart diplomacy'. This is getting quite nasty and personal.
OK, maybe not nasty, but this is as much a head-to-head as last week, though Bush is fighting better than he did. On Iraqi elections now: Kerry again hammers Bush on not having a good plan (or any plan), and then makes some good points about how the US needs allies back in Iraq. Bush talks about Iraqi Finance Minister's optimism, and trying to make it sound like it just looks bad here. Says Kerry has stolen his plan, then criticises it, which seems odd. Bush abbreviated Berlusconi to 'Berlus...'
On rebuttal, Kerry brings up Tora Bora again and how Osama escaped. Bush bringing out the 75% number again, because Al Qaeda hasn't recruited anyone since 2001, of course.
Next question to Bush on repairing diplomatic relations with other countries. Shorter Bush response: 'We're the USA, bitch!' Kerry - I can remember what you said 4 years ago, can you? Bush broke old promises. Other nations would have backed the US if Blix was given time to do his job - Bush rushed and didn't plan.
As they each keep jumping up in response, I keep seeing this as a rap battle - how about a question when they have to answer in rhyme. Kerry: 'Military's job is to win the war, the President's job is to win the peace.'
Next question on Iran: Kerry - it's a problem because Bush took his eye off the ball, same with North Korea. 'We have to lead the world to crack down on proliferation' - brings up Russian nuclear problems, how his plan will sort it in 4 years rather than Bush's 13. Bush: 'naive and dangerous' to let inspectors do their job.
Question on the draft: Bush says there are 'rumours on the internets' - can anyone tell me where the other ones are? I think he's saying there's no need for a draft because there are troops in Europe and South Korea who can be moved out. 'We're not going to have a draft so long as I'm a President.' Kerry: lists former Generals and Chiefs of Staff who support him because they know the military is over-extended - 'backdoor draft' in place. Military will work better because of more alliances.
Ooh, Bush is angry, listing leaders and managed Berlusconi and Kwasniewski (though I've probably spelt that wrong!) this time. Kerry - countries have left the coalition and those that are in, apart from US and UK, aren't contributing.
Again, Kerry looks Presidential, Bush looks angry.
Question on terrorist attacks: Kerry says we need better intelligence, need allies to get intelligency, have to invest in homeland security - Bush chose tax cut over homeland security. Bush - best defence is a good offence, says Kerry doesn't have 'the right view to make us safe'. Again, he's trying to attack Kerry, but not really picking up Kerry's attacks on him while Kerry is getting his rebuttal in on Bush's attacks.
Prescription drugs: Bush - Canadian drugs can kill. (I always knew those Canucks were evil - I don't really know the issues here) Kerry brings up Bush's statements from four years ago - that's some clever preparation and good memory.
Ooh, question on Edwards' time as a lawyer: Kerry comes back well, saying he and Edwards know the issues with tort reform and patients rights. It's less than 1% of the total cost of health care. Idea for a suicidal drinking game: do a shot every time Kerry says 'I have a plan' Bush's response mangles 'Kerry' and 'Kennedy' and brings up the most liberal senator lie again and is trying to use the 'he's a bad evil liberal' line.
I think I spot the Bush/Cheney campaign line for the next couple of weeks: 'John Kerry is an evil liberal, John Edwards is an evil trial lawyer'
On the budget deficit, Bush trots out the supply-side mantra. Kerry: biggest turnaround from surplus to deficit ever, first president to lose jobs for 72 years, first time taxes have been cut in wartime. Bush is thinking 'I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky facts' - the other Kerry drinking game is a shot for each time he mentions 'the top 1%'. You'd just about be still standing now.
Kerry gets asked to pledge not to raise taxes on families under $200,000 and does it - makes a good point that he's had to abandon programmes he wanted to bring in because of Bush's deficit. Great line about who'll be affected by his tax changes - 'The President, me, and Charlie'.
I'll throw the summary of Bush' response to the MSN Messenger peanut gallery: oh so whiney.. whine whine whine
Bush gets a question on the environment, and really stumbles through his answer on this one. The questioner does not look at all impressed with his answer. Kerry talks about Bush's plans as 'Orwellian names' and how Bush has damaged environmental protection. 'I'm going to be a President who believes in science'.
Again, Kerry looking reasoned, capable, discussing the issues, Bush is reciting lists and getting angry.
While they discuss jobs and outsourcing, let's look at Betfair again: Bush still at 1.71, Kerry in to 2.34. There's been money going on during the debate, but not too much and with a slight edge to Kerry. Everyone waiting for the post-debate spin, I guess.
On Patriot Act: Bush says rights aren't being restricted, but all tools are needed to fight evile terrersts, Kerry lists Republicans who oppose it and lists the restrictions it puts on: 'we must never let the terrorists change the US Constitution'
Stem cells: Kerry respects objections to it, and mentions Michael J Fox and the hope of someone he met that they can save lives with it. Bush comes on and talks about life - did he just change the reference from 22 lines to 23? Again, he doesn't seem confident here, but I think he's trying to avoid mentioning religion. Peanut gallery: he has NO FUCKING CLUE what he's talking about
Sorry, Blogger took a while to publish there - Kerry won on the Supreme Court question easily as Bush had to reach all the way back to Dred Scott to find a decision he disagreed with.
Abortion: Kerry put on the spot again there, but came off well. Bush again seems to be struggling to answer without talking about God.
Shorter Kerry's rebuttal there: 'Don't fuck with me, monkey boy - I'm John Kerry, bitch!' Man, I'd pay good money to watch a proper, no holds barred debate between these two.
On mistakes: I missed Bush's full answer, but it seemed big waffle again. Kerry's talking about specific issues he's got wrong related to the war, and though I hate to repeat myself, he sounds clear and talking about actual issues and isn't vague.
Closing statements are the usual, but my thoughts are that Kerry's won this one again by, yet again, looking competent and sounding Presidential while Bush just sounds angry (and I'm pretty sure he's already got the angry white guy vote locked up) and talks about generalities. In terms of the post-debate spin, Kerry's got lots of sections where he can be quoted, lots of good sounding soundbites on different issues, while Bush's all sound the same.
And as a final point, it seems the gamblers of the world agree with me: Kerry is now down to 2.18 on Betfair with Bush out to 1.75. There's been a lot of money on Kerry in the last half hour.
Before we start, make sure you're aware of the debate rules.
Something to watch as the night goes on if you want to follow the money and see who's won - Betfair's prices are currently 1.71 on Bush and 2.38 on Kerry (that's about 7/10 and 7/5 in standard odds). Interestingly, Betfair have just opened markets on various swing states, but there's still very little money in them, but it'll be interesting to see how prices go in them as they establish.
The cameras just showed Bush momentarily from the back - I'm sure someone's looking for a bulge there.
First question to Kerry - are you wishy-washy? He responds by saying the Bush campaign is a 'weapon of mass deception'. Interesting answer - pointing out that he's supported Bush on issues and that Bush has changed his mind to not do what he says. Bush response is a bit of a yah-boo, but not bad, though 'pressure' could be this week's 'hard work'.
Next question is on weapons of mass destruction and the ISG report. Bush: 9/11 changed everything, Saddam was a 'unique threat' even if he didn't possess WMDs. Kerry - the world is more dangerous because the President made the wrong judgements. Kerry stepping right up to the Bush attacks - I believe Saddam was a threat, and I wanted him removed from power, but I would have used power wisely. Bush took his eye off the ball.
Rebuttal: Bush brings up the 'global test', sanctions and the UN weren't working. Kerry - ISG report shows sanctions worked to removed WMDs, and US should have used 'smart diplomacy'. This is getting quite nasty and personal.
OK, maybe not nasty, but this is as much a head-to-head as last week, though Bush is fighting better than he did. On Iraqi elections now: Kerry again hammers Bush on not having a good plan (or any plan), and then makes some good points about how the US needs allies back in Iraq. Bush talks about Iraqi Finance Minister's optimism, and trying to make it sound like it just looks bad here. Says Kerry has stolen his plan, then criticises it, which seems odd. Bush abbreviated Berlusconi to 'Berlus...'
On rebuttal, Kerry brings up Tora Bora again and how Osama escaped. Bush bringing out the 75% number again, because Al Qaeda hasn't recruited anyone since 2001, of course.
Next question to Bush on repairing diplomatic relations with other countries. Shorter Bush response: 'We're the USA, bitch!' Kerry - I can remember what you said 4 years ago, can you? Bush broke old promises. Other nations would have backed the US if Blix was given time to do his job - Bush rushed and didn't plan.
As they each keep jumping up in response, I keep seeing this as a rap battle - how about a question when they have to answer in rhyme. Kerry: 'Military's job is to win the war, the President's job is to win the peace.'
Next question on Iran: Kerry - it's a problem because Bush took his eye off the ball, same with North Korea. 'We have to lead the world to crack down on proliferation' - brings up Russian nuclear problems, how his plan will sort it in 4 years rather than Bush's 13. Bush: 'naive and dangerous' to let inspectors do their job.
Question on the draft: Bush says there are 'rumours on the internets' - can anyone tell me where the other ones are? I think he's saying there's no need for a draft because there are troops in Europe and South Korea who can be moved out. 'We're not going to have a draft so long as I'm a President.' Kerry: lists former Generals and Chiefs of Staff who support him because they know the military is over-extended - 'backdoor draft' in place. Military will work better because of more alliances.
Ooh, Bush is angry, listing leaders and managed Berlusconi and Kwasniewski (though I've probably spelt that wrong!) this time. Kerry - countries have left the coalition and those that are in, apart from US and UK, aren't contributing.
Again, Kerry looks Presidential, Bush looks angry.
Question on terrorist attacks: Kerry says we need better intelligence, need allies to get intelligency, have to invest in homeland security - Bush chose tax cut over homeland security. Bush - best defence is a good offence, says Kerry doesn't have 'the right view to make us safe'. Again, he's trying to attack Kerry, but not really picking up Kerry's attacks on him while Kerry is getting his rebuttal in on Bush's attacks.
Prescription drugs: Bush - Canadian drugs can kill. (I always knew those Canucks were evil - I don't really know the issues here) Kerry brings up Bush's statements from four years ago - that's some clever preparation and good memory.
Ooh, question on Edwards' time as a lawyer: Kerry comes back well, saying he and Edwards know the issues with tort reform and patients rights. It's less than 1% of the total cost of health care. Idea for a suicidal drinking game: do a shot every time Kerry says 'I have a plan' Bush's response mangles 'Kerry' and 'Kennedy' and brings up the most liberal senator lie again and is trying to use the 'he's a bad evil liberal' line.
I think I spot the Bush/Cheney campaign line for the next couple of weeks: 'John Kerry is an evil liberal, John Edwards is an evil trial lawyer'
On the budget deficit, Bush trots out the supply-side mantra. Kerry: biggest turnaround from surplus to deficit ever, first president to lose jobs for 72 years, first time taxes have been cut in wartime. Bush is thinking 'I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky facts' - the other Kerry drinking game is a shot for each time he mentions 'the top 1%'. You'd just about be still standing now.
Kerry gets asked to pledge not to raise taxes on families under $200,000 and does it - makes a good point that he's had to abandon programmes he wanted to bring in because of Bush's deficit. Great line about who'll be affected by his tax changes - 'The President, me, and Charlie'.
I'll throw the summary of Bush' response to the MSN Messenger peanut gallery: oh so whiney.. whine whine whine
Bush gets a question on the environment, and really stumbles through his answer on this one. The questioner does not look at all impressed with his answer. Kerry talks about Bush's plans as 'Orwellian names' and how Bush has damaged environmental protection. 'I'm going to be a President who believes in science'.
Again, Kerry looking reasoned, capable, discussing the issues, Bush is reciting lists and getting angry.
While they discuss jobs and outsourcing, let's look at Betfair again: Bush still at 1.71, Kerry in to 2.34. There's been money going on during the debate, but not too much and with a slight edge to Kerry. Everyone waiting for the post-debate spin, I guess.
On Patriot Act: Bush says rights aren't being restricted, but all tools are needed to fight evile terrersts, Kerry lists Republicans who oppose it and lists the restrictions it puts on: 'we must never let the terrorists change the US Constitution'
Stem cells: Kerry respects objections to it, and mentions Michael J Fox and the hope of someone he met that they can save lives with it. Bush comes on and talks about life - did he just change the reference from 22 lines to 23? Again, he doesn't seem confident here, but I think he's trying to avoid mentioning religion. Peanut gallery: he has NO FUCKING CLUE what he's talking about
Sorry, Blogger took a while to publish there - Kerry won on the Supreme Court question easily as Bush had to reach all the way back to Dred Scott to find a decision he disagreed with.
Abortion: Kerry put on the spot again there, but came off well. Bush again seems to be struggling to answer without talking about God.
Shorter Kerry's rebuttal there: 'Don't fuck with me, monkey boy - I'm John Kerry, bitch!' Man, I'd pay good money to watch a proper, no holds barred debate between these two.
On mistakes: I missed Bush's full answer, but it seemed big waffle again. Kerry's talking about specific issues he's got wrong related to the war, and though I hate to repeat myself, he sounds clear and talking about actual issues and isn't vague.
Closing statements are the usual, but my thoughts are that Kerry's won this one again by, yet again, looking competent and sounding Presidential while Bush just sounds angry (and I'm pretty sure he's already got the angry white guy vote locked up) and talks about generalities. In terms of the post-debate spin, Kerry's got lots of sections where he can be quoted, lots of good sounding soundbites on different issues, while Bush's all sound the same.
And as a final point, it seems the gamblers of the world agree with me: Kerry is now down to 2.18 on Betfair with Bush out to 1.75. There's been a lot of money on Kerry in the last half hour.
Nick got away with this at 1:52 AM
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