Looks like the monomaniacs from the Campaign for an English Parliament have decided to have a go at Bob Russell for reasons that, as usual for them, don’t seem to make sense to people outside the English nationalist bubble. Yes, they’re still wedded to the idea that any attempt to devolve power to something that’s not an English Parliament is wrong, and recognising that Cumbria, Kent, Cornwall and Lincolnshire might have different priorities is somehow anti-English. Of course, a Parliament that represents 60m people with almost 90% of its members representing England is unrepresentative, yet somehow one representing 50m people will magically solve all the problems of England by the second verse of Jerusalem/Land Of Hope and Glory.
Have to say that I’d never heard of the Workers of England union before today – and judging from their website, it would appear that all the workers of England are white – but I amused by their ’causes’ page asserting that ‘The WEU believes that the people of England should, just like virtually every other country throughout the world celebrate our own patron saint’. Given that I could easily name dozens of countries – many of which are supposedly Christian ones as well – that don’t celebrate their patron saint’s day (who is the patron saint of the USA, for instance?), it doesn’t make me feel that much else on their site should be trusted as fact.
(And for anyone thinking of posting a comment, see if you can do it without using phrases like ‘anti-English’ ‘self-hating Englishman’ or ‘ZaNu Liebore’.)
by John Hodgman
by Drew Westen
by Ian Mortimer
by Jeff Greenfield
by Heather Peace
In my town (Southport), there are three big parades each year;
- St. George’s Day, for the Scouts
- The big parade for charideee
- An Orangemen’s parade to celebrate the ‘Glorious Twelth’, which I always thought was the beginning of the grouse-shooting season, but is apparently meant to celebrate the Battle of the Boyne
Which demonstrates that all of this ‘we’re not allowed to celebrate St. George’s Day because of PC MADNESS!’ is a lot of balls. The fact is that (whisper it) England has never celebrated St. George’s Day to such a great extent, We’re also quite happy in addition to allow sectarian bigots to celebrate some ancient anniversary, bang a few drums, and occasionally smash up the Irish bar. Which I think is slightly frowned upon these days by the politically correct.
To be honest, I find all this English tup-thumping rather unsettling. As a committed unionist, I’m uneasy at the way that the Right has switched to emblems to English nationalism, which means that the group of outsiders which are scapegoated by them now includes not only the rest of the world, but also the Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish. This kind of talk might well indicate the long-term breakup of the union, which is ironic given the usual charge that anyone who disagrees with them is unpatriotic. Also, it indicates a shift away towards an ethnic nationalism that I sure as hell don’t feel comfortable with – Britain was never racially homogenous, what with these awkward Celts at the edges, but with England they can associate patriotism with an Anglo-Saxon ethnic identity.
That said, I totally support the campaign for an English parliament… as part of a settlement including stronger county and borough councils.
If National parliaments for wales and scotland are great as they keep telling us they are, we’d better be having a National Parliament for England too.
you are only a committed unionist because you need scottish and welsh MP’s to help you tinker with England.
I’m not sure where you’ve got the idea I’m a ‘committed unionist’ from, but I can see that a fundamental difference between Scotland, Wales and England is that the latter is much bigger than the other two. If Westminster is so unrepresentative, then why is something only slightly smaller going to be much better?
A single issue campaign like the Campaign for an English Parliament is by definition “monomaniacal”.
That is it’s very purpose.
And so by definition the CEP will campaign for an English Parliament and against any other fudge designed to avoid the creation of an English Parliament.
Surely this is obvious?
But when Bob is being challenged to “explain his stance towards England”, with the question of whether or not he supports an English Parliament being the sole decider of that, it is oddly monomaniacal, especially in the light of his support for other English causes: http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-07-21c.288748.h
Nick, have you read David Melding’s book yet?
No, but if I happen to see a copy at the library, I might pick it up.
Stop being deliberately ignorant. If you check them out, they are not opposed to power being devolved locally, but call into question the unaccountable Regional Assemblies, which, in the words of a previous Scottish Lib Dem leader, “Call into the question the very idea of England itself.” [a Lib Dem Lord also calls for Regional Assemblies to be entrenched, in order "to dismantle England"] .
You have a computer. Check this out unless you prefer to remain ignorant.
And as for Bob Russell, stating we have a democratically elected government – WHAT????
Who elected Gordon Brown? His Scottish constuents, to represent them at UK Level. He signed the Scottish Claim of Right, pledging to always put Scotland’s interests first and foremost. He does just that.
Now, he can be Scottish and be elected in England, but he’s not. And he does not rule over Scotland. He rules over England – because his Scottish constituency elected him. Not us. We have no say in who rules over us. That’s up the Labour Party and they chose a man elected in Scotland, but who has no moral or democratic mandate to rule over England.
That’s the sytem set up by Gordon Brown and his colleagues. That system is undemocratic and unacceptable.
We need a national government, which will look after the interests of all the people in England. Post-devolution, that’s what we should all be demanding.
Now Bob Russell should stop lying to us all – we do not have a democratically elected government and the RAs are only to divide England into regions and stop us hankering after a national government, elected by us.
The Tories are as bad and the Lib Dems even worse, but Charles Kennedy’s words will never be forgotten.
To call me ‘deliberately ignorant’ and then to claim ‘we have no say in who rules over us’ is somewhat amusing. To take your logic to its conclusion, I could claim that if the Tories win the next election, David Cameron has no mandate to rule over anywhere other than Witney…
The Claim of Right -
We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.
We further declare and pledge that our actions and deliberations shall be directed to the following ends:
To agree a scheme for an Assembly or Parliament for Scotland;
To mobilise Scottish opinion and ensure the approval of the Scottish people for that scheme; and
To assert the right of the Scottish people to secrure implementation of that scheme.
Signed: Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, et al
Top up fees – forced on the English by Scottish MPs, Foundation hospitals, forced on the English by Scottish MPs, The Barnett Formula, which prevents the dying in England from receiving life prolonging drugs, PLUS EXTRA TAXES FORCED ONTO THE ENGLISH BY A SCOTTISH CHANCELLOR WHICH DO NOT APPLY TO SCOTLAND – road tolls, fishing licences, bridge tolls, water rates, hospital parking charges, prescription fess, eye tests, dental checks, reseidential fees, etc, etc – and new taxes being designed for the English as I type!!
WE IN ENGLAND SHALL NEVER FORGET – NOR FORGIVE
Not one Labour MP elected in England has the spine to speak out agains this inustice. Labour will therefore spend eternity in the wilderness as a consequence!
I notice you’re removed the words stating you are a committed unionist? Ashamed, are you?
sorry it is Foregone Conclusion who is a comitted unionist.
However, if an English Parliament cannot solve problems in Cumbria, Kent, Cornwall and Lincolnshire, why is a british Parliament able too?
It can’t and hasn’t, Gadgie. Its high time people like this were called to account. If they think name calling will scare us all into silence, then they’ve another think coming.
I’ll tell you another thing – everyone I know now wants independence from Scotland. You wouldn’t have heard that a few years ago. That’s Labour’s real legacy.
Back stabbers like Bob Russell are disgusting. The stench from Westminster is making everyone sick to their stomachs.
Roll on the elections. I will vote Tory, just to piss off the jocks, now.
Tup-thumping Foregone Conclusion? That sounds like rather a nasty perversion!
I’ve not heard of the WEU until today either, but they do state that “The WEU is a union which is open to all who live and work in England. Our membership is as diverse and eclectic as our members’ skills base. “ which falls short of the accusation “judging from their website, it would appear that all the workers of England are white”.
Funny how people never had a problem with a Scottish Parliament. What’s so different about the English wanting a parliament?
And Westminster is unrepresentative because its members are elected to it as members of the UK parliament, not the English parliament. Therefore their mandate and remit is the UK. They are not there to look out only for the interests of England, unlike the Scottish Parliament does for Scotland. And what’s more, all Scottish Labour members of the UK parliament, except Tam Dalyell, signed the Scottish Claim of Right, by which they pledged to make the interests of Scotland paramount in everything they do. That includes Brown, who calls himself prime minister of the ‘united’ Kingdom.
Out of genuine interest, where does this oft-repeated claim that “no one ever had a problem with a Scottish parliament” (or Welsh/Northern Irish Assembly, for that matter) come from?
I seem to recall numerous debates in the late 90s in which the concept of devolution was heavily criticised by people from all over the political spectrum – often in terms nearly as heated as those that marked the Irish Home Rule debates of the late 19th/early 20th centuries.
Nick, I’m a polymaniac with a strong desire for constitutional equality with my fellow UK citizens, so can you explain why it is unreasonable for England to be treated any different to Scotland or Wales?
If your instinct is to talk about size, why was power devolved to Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, when Scotland is twice the size of one and four times the size of the other? If you’re tempted to cite homogeny, why was rural, touristy, Welsh speaking north Wales lumped together with industrial Anglophonic South Wales? The same can be said about the Highlands/ Islands and Lowlands. It doesn’t make much sense unless you realize that power was devolved to the national level. If the process is to be completed, the same precedents have to be applied if we’re to avoid an inequitable settlement.
If England needs to devolve power to a more local level, then I’m sure there’s enough collective wit to manage it in the English Parliament. What I struggle to justify is the UK Parliament, West Lothian Question and the Barnett Formula.
If you can point out where I’ve said it’s ‘unreasonable’, then I will. Until then, you might want to look at what I’ve actually said.
I believe in subsidiarity and devolving power down to the appropriate/best level to decide on issues, it’s just that I can see very few issues where all-England is the best level on which to decide them. So, I can’t quite see what the point of an English Parliament might be, other than as another level of government and bureaucracy to eat up resources. Your opinion appears to differ.
Diane Abbott said on the programme, This Week, that English Labour MPs only voted for a Scottish Parliament because Scottish Labour MPs told them it would stop the SNP gaining Labour seats.
You’ve got to laugh, now that the SNP are wiping the floor with Scottish Labour. And still the Labour Party are blind to rising anger in England. If they had half a brain between them, they’d ……………….. but clearly they haven’t, so it would be a waste of breath.
Still waiting to be accused of being racist, by Mr Barlow. He apparently assumes anything with the word English in it, is automatically racist. The far left are extremely non tolerant of anything or anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Usually they use name calling as a weapon, but there have been plenty of cases where the far left socialist has resorted to extreme violence. Brown and Blair, for instance, in Iraq. And Pol Pot, plus the Russian dictators [communism and socialism shouldn't go hand in hand, but they do tend to.]
I’d respond to your comments, but as you seem to be having a fine discussion with the straw man in your head, it wouldn’t be right to interrupt.
“I’d respond to your comments, but as you seem to be having a fine discussion with the straw man in your head, it wouldn’t be right to interrupt.”
… reads like “I surrender” to me. I did think it might last a bit longer though.
As the nation has come to expect, any replies will contain only insults. You can’t reason with responses which do not rise above the level of playground abuse.
I guess we should be grateful we weren’t subjected to his default accusations of racism. Even that word has been so much used and abused that it no longer means anything more offensive than “poo poo pants.” [and that speaks volumes for the accuser, Nick]
You say that I “apparently assumes anything with the word English in it, is automatically racist” and then appear to think I’m part of the ‘far left’ and start making comparisons to Pol Pot. If I’m going to have a discussion with someone, I like to be sharing some sort of plane of reality with them, and if you seriously believe what you’ve written about me, then we clearly don’t.
I clearly do. You were unable to make a post about something with the word “English in it,” without seeking out evidence [real or perceived] of racism.
You see what I mean? A piece of advice for all the commenters above – you appear to be absolutely insane, and I AGREE with you on the issue! I want to see a federal government, and I’m not particularly happy that Scottish MPs have been used against liberal causes. The Barnett formula undoubtedly needs re-examining as well. On the other hand, I strongly dislike the kind of anti-Scots and anti-Welsh attitudes exhibited above. And I will say straight off that I feel little or no feeling towards England, as opposed to Britain.
There are many people in the Tories, Lib Dems, and perhaps even Labour that agree with you on principle, and you would be able to mobilise them if you didn’t use such bitter and divisive language (i.e. screaming about dying cancer patients, the Claim of Right which I’d certainly never heard of, your wish to ‘piss off the Jocks’).
Always been a bit suspicious of the setup at Westminster since I was a child. Went along with it but never really identified with it ot with its parties or the whole Westminster establishment. For many years did not really know why. Not me . Did not seem concerned about me or my lot. Its the harping on about Britain that gets up my nose and the deliberate playing down of England . Very obvious now Scotland and Wales have got own parliaments. Why not us? Nothing very difficult about this . Why not us?
What really cheeses me off is the way they clearly intend to keep on calling the remains of the UK after Scottish independence the UK still. this is bloody ridiculous whats wrong with England? Its what the rest of the world calls us
Foregone conclusion, when someone is forced to go blind in one eye before receiving treatment for the other [macular degeneration], but would receive treatment to save the sight in both eyes had they lived in Scotland, where 21% higher funding allows for this provision and when women in England with breast cancer are denied access to life prolonging drugs for the same reasons, any sane and caring person would be very angry indeed. You can get on your high horse when you even begin to speak out for those people [and even before members of your own family are affected]. These things and more have been and are happening to those who are neediest in our communities.
As for pissing of the jocks, the comment has deeper meaning. We all know that when we get a Tory government – as we surely will now – the Scots will be so angry, that the SNP will win their Independence referendum. The SNP are absolutely counting on that outcome and they know that if the Scots are pissed off enough, they’re three quarters of the way to independence. If that’s what it takes for democracy to be restored to England, then I’ll gladly help the SNP.
As far as the Tories & Lib Dems sympathising – nothing is more important to those MPs than their own careers. They do as their Master tells them. Not one of them spoke out about Charles Kennedy’s speech, or about Dave Cameron’s nasty speeches in Glasgow.
Hadn’t heard of the Scotish Claim of Right?? You have now, though something tells me you will continue to ignore the democratic implications of a Prime Minister and Chancellor being sigantories of this document. Had either one been English and signed the English Claim of Right, the far left would be screaming for their heads on a block.
And for the record, I am not a member of any group or Party. Just a bloody furious working class voter, with just as furious relatives, neighbours and friends. And we will never vote Labour again.
Foregone conclusion, rich areas of Scotland receive 20-odd% more money to spend on health than more deserving poor areas of England and Wales. This results in life saving/life changing drugs being “unaffordable” to working people in England and Wales, but free to middle class, wealthy Scots.
Surely not to “screaming” about this injustice is anti-English, rather than the reverse. Maybe you have to be a socialist to understand this point. Maybe you’d then understand why this socialist won’t be voting Labour and if a Tory Government results in the breakup of the UK, might understand why I (and I suspect plenty of others) will even consider voting for them!!
As for the Scottish Claim of Right, see here http://www.alba.org.uk/devolution/claimofright.html
You’ll see that Brown, Darling, Reid, Falconer and so on ad nauseum have all pledged to hold Scotland’s interests “paramount” in all their “actions and deliberations”. Seeing that we now have an education tax in England but not in Scotland and a superior health service for middle class Scots (at the expense of the English working class) I’d say they’ve done a bloody good job, wouldn’t you?
In fact I’d say those “screaming” are showing remarkable self restraint.
I can remember back in May talking wioth people in Halstead about one of their neighbours who is a member of the english Democrats. They all thought that the man was a total loony who they would all avoid like the plague if they saw him down the pub.
Looks like he’s not the only barstool bore caught up with that nonsense.
T_I_B is that it? Just insults.
You really can’t formulate a single cognitive argument?
For me, the UK system of governance in England is now outdated and illogical. We need a representative parliament like Scotland’s, and Wales and Northern Ireland need that too.
The UK Government can then be vastly honed down.
Politicians seem to hate the idea, but I can’t help visualising the huge, comfortable gravy train they are riding. And don’t want disrupting.
How England is governed on a local level should be the responsibility of MPs elected by the people of England, with input from the electorate, of course.
78% of those who took part in the referendum in the North East voted against regionalisation.
Yet still we have it.
And in 1989 Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling signed the Scottish Claim Of Right, vowing to put Scotland’s interests above all else.
They have never retracted that pledge.
The best way to save the UK, if indeed that is the will of its people, is to give each nation the same system of governance.
And as devolution has been rolled out on national lines up to now, that means giving England exactly the same national representation as Scotland – and upgrading the national bodies for Wales and Northern Ireland too.
“T_I_B is that it? Just insults.
You really can’t formulate a single cognitive argument?”
No Terry, it’s what people I’ve spoken to (who are all pretty Conservative) think of their English Democrat neighbour.
If the English Democrats don’t like that then they might like to consider changing their ways.